Tire chains...who needs them!

We have equipped a number of our engines with on spot chains and we have the capability of placing traditional chains on our tenders. What are your thoughts on the use of tire chains?

w Should we look at alternatives like the tire cables Spokane City uses?

w Should it be left to the driver each time we go?

w Should we be more dependent on the fact that we can go where the public enables us?

In the many years associated with the fire service and in the snow (NE Ohio), we never had used tire chains. When I got to Washington it seemed that they were the things to have and some cities close by chain up all winter long. I’d like to hear your thoughts.

Posted by Chief Mark Havener 1-7-07

10 Comments

Well, that was a great discussion on tire chains. If I were to take something away

from this Blog, it would be that we all have ideas and many seem to surround the

idea of safety. How we approach this safety issue seems to be based upon a risk

analysis. I can choose to drive too fast for conditions knowing that I rake the risk of

damaging the vehicle myself or others. I know that all of our volunteers use pretty

good risk analysis when they approach each situation.

I also think that we had consensus that we need to have traction aids available for

our larger vehicles and we need to know how to install them in an efficient manner.

Thanks for all of the views.

Posted by Chief Mark Havener 1-22-08

I must agree with a lot of the points that were said. Let us think back to about a week ago, when yes we could have used chains down the highway from the stations when there was snow. Now take a look at the highway today...bare. Are you going to take the chains off if they were on or drive at a very bumpy slow 10-20 mph to a house fire? This seems like it is not a win-win situation. Yes, there are times we might use them and times we might not need them. To take off and put on chains takes time, be it during a call or at any time. The problem is that if it snows at night and a firefighter heads to the station to put then on, the road may be clear at the early morning call and now you need to take them off. Time wasted there as well.

I think the best solution to this is...driver’s choice. They are on the truck if needed. If

there is a driveway that you do not think you can make, then maybe we should not

take that truck down there. We have fought several house fires with a brush truck

only...so it would not be the first time or the last. We must think of the safety of our

own and our trucks. I would hate to take a truck up a drive where it probably should

not be due to the conditions and take a chance of sliding off the road, rolling and

hurting or killing firefighters. Drivers must remember this one thing...SLOW DOWN in bad weather. If needed, we can water shuttle or relay pump to the brush truck on

scene. Again, if we slow down during bad weather, you will get where you’re going. If you don’t think the truck will make it with out chains, probably you should not go

because if you get stuck even with chains and block that driveway, no one else can

get up there either.

Posted by D. Keck, POFD3 Training Officer 1-17-08

Personally, I think that tire chains are essential in this part of the state because we

just get so much snow. If you had just bare tires without tire chains than you would

have to go too slow down the road.

Posted by Justin Hunnel, POFD3 Junior Firefighter 1-17-08

Having grown up in Alaska and seen some of the most treacherous road

conditions in my life I can say that chains were only used as a very last resort. Our family managed to navigate these roads with using common sense and a "take your time" attitude to get there. We never had an accident in the many, many winters we lived there.

I'm in agreement that emergency response is a multiple government agency and community residents undertaking. It is up to the different government agencies to keep public roads maintained and clear and passable for police, fire and EMS. It is the police, fire and EMS responsibilities to respond as rapidly and SAFELY as possible to protect life and property. It is the communities residents' responsibility to make their property accessible to emergency response personnel (if they want help). After all, don't we educate homeowners on summer wildland fire safety by having them clear vegetation back from their homes among other things? Maybe we should undertake a community education program explaining to residents what they need to do in case they need emergency help. i.e. keep driveways clear, keep sidewalks and stairs clear, clear obstacles (junk cars, garbage, etc.) from the access path, thus making it safer, easier and faster for responders to get to them

and help them. Also explain to them that if they don't undertake these simple

steps they could be in jeopardy of first responders not being able to get to them or being injured in the process and then not being able to help them. After all, the dangers and emergencies don't change, just the weather changes.

We are a volunteer organization in a VERY rural area. We don't have the luxury of flat paved roads with armies of snow/ice removal resources to clear a path to the front door of every home like they do in the city. Residents need to be part of the solution to this issue of whether or not our rigs will need chains (in the winter) or engine intake snorkels (during rain and mud season) to get to them.

Posted by Don Thomson, #312 POFD3 Firefighter 1-17-08

I think we should use cable chain's! As an OTR ex-truck driver, that's the only

way to go-for ease of operation and safety sake not to mention price!

Posted by Patrick D. Rice, POFD3 Firefighter 1-17-08

The conditions are too variable to use chains. Dry roads, icy roads, snowy roads...all on one call. I think no manual chains should be the policy for the larger apparatus and 4x4 for all of the smaller apparatus. Usually the only life and death stuff we deal with is medical and our 4x4 capabilities have served us well. The 4-wheel drive engine of FD #4 was a good move and we can mutual with them.

Posted by Captain Perry Pearman, Sacheen Lake Station 1-11-08

In my time with this district only once to my recollection have chains been

required. We have a district that has been fairly good about knowing the

capabilities of the apparatus in these conditions. We are also very good at getting water to a scene. Some of this issue needs to be the burden of our community also. If the Roads Department doesn’t do it’s job...and if the homeowners don't keep their homes accessible...then how much should we be expected to do as a volunteer district?

It comes down to an operator knowing what his capabilities are and the first on-scene giving a thorough scene size-up especially accessibility this time of year. Chains should be onboard and available for a tender operator. It is up to that driver to know how to place them on and the appropriate time to use them. If cable chains are more "user-friendly" then so it shall be, if it can be justified.

Posted by Alex, POFD3 1-11-08

Great comments by both so far. I liked Michelle's take on we always do whatever is needed. I agree. I think the delay in placing chains on at the driver or officers discretion could be avoided but the majority of the time they are not needed. So, again, should we look at a more user friendly approach...or should I say a more apparatus friendly approach...like tire cables or only on-spots?

Posted by Chief Mark Havener 1-9-08

Well In the past, I think we left it to the driver for the most part. For one, putting and

leaving the chains on the vehicles can save time but then will also slow our response time if the roads are bare. I think the big issue is.... Most of the time, the main roads are ok. If you are running to a call and there is snow on the roads, we should not be driving fast.... * Arrive Alive*... If there is a driveway where we might need chains, it usually is a brush/rescue only.

As far as tenders with chains, we are very careful where we take them, even during wildland season. So if there is an area you don’t think a big truck should go, probably shouldn't. I think it should be each stations preference. I know that having chains on and a bare road is not a fun drive by any means; so taking them off is a time issue there to. If there is an area where an engine with on-spots went, and a tender can't, first-in officer needs to be mindful and maybe lie in and have second-in engine relay. It's one of those "Danged if you do, danged if you don't.

Posted by Dean K-POFD3 Training Officer 1-8-08

I will be the first to respond to this Blog. I think that if we leave it to the driver it is

taking to much of the response time away from our community. That is extra time

that takes our wonderful firefighters from fighting fire. I also think that when it comes

to going only where the community allows, we have to give it everything we can--go

to the full extent that we can--before we decide we can't get to someone's house and let it burn. That is just to much stuff for someone to loose without a full effort. I know pofd3 will do everything they can. It is a wonderful dept. with wonderful volunteers that give everything to save things.

Posted by Michelle B 1-8-08

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